The Research Method
MOST OF THE MATERIAL presented in this book was obtained by using the so-called "Self-Confrontation Method" which is based on the valuation theory of Hermans (1974, 1978, 1981). In valuation theory the experiential world of a person is conceived of as being organized around a system of value areas. A value area is something which a person at a particular time in his or her life considers important.
Using the Self-Confrontation Method an attempt is made through sets of questions to describe a person's experiential world (his or her systems of value areas) as comprehensively as possible. This is done by letting the person determine what he considers important in his present situation, and he has the opportunity to link the various aspects together and give his own interpretations.
We adapted the original version of the Self-Confrontation Method (Hermans 1974) and the investigation itself to the developmental level of the boys we would be studying.
To establish each boy's value areas, the first seven questions which Bonke (1977) formulated were used:
1. Activity: "What do you do a lot?"
2. Enjoyment: "What do you enjoy a lot?"
3. Dislike: "What do you dislike a lot?"
4. Thinking about: "What do you think about a lot?"
5. Positive relations: "Who do you get on well with?"
6. Negative relations: "Who do you not get on well with?"
7. Supplement: "When you have read all the things we have put down, is there still something that is very important to you.
Each question doesn't always yield a value area; on the other hand it might lead to the formulation of multiple value areas. The questions are designed to encompass as broadly as possible the boy's experiential world. In order to assure that in every "self-investigation" a number of corresponding aspects could be examined, additional questions were added. These questions were asked after the "spontaneous" value areas had already been set up, and only then if the boy had not already himself formulated such value areas. These questions related to the older partner, the sexual contact with the older partner and the positive and negative sides to that contact. Finally, as is part of the Self-Confrontation Method, the boys were asked how they had recently been feeling in general (the General experience) and how they would really like to feel (the Ideal experience.) These questions were:
8. Older partner: "What is your friend's name?"
9. Making love: "You also make love with . Some people call that sex or sexual contact. What do you call it?"
10. Making love-positive: "If you now think about the sexual contact with . what do you find pleasurable about it? Why would you not want to go without it?"
11. Making love-negative: "If you think about the sexual contact with ...., what do you find unpleasant about it? Why would you perhaps rather not do it any more?"
Sets 10 and I I were introduced with the remark that many things, such as going to school, have both pleasant and unpleasant sides to them. Since this mode of questioning presupposes that there are unpleasant aspects of the sexual contact, the boys, whenever this was really the case, would have had more difficulty denying it. All of the value areas were written down on cards.
After the value areas had been formulated, they were scored with respect to 14 feelings. Use was made of Bonke's list (1977), except that the feeling of "anxiety" was replaced by "naughty" because it would seem to have a central place in the phenomenon being examined. The list was as follows:
After it was determined that the boy understood the feelings on the list, he was asked to concentrate on the value areas he had formulated and then to say how often he had each of those feelings in connection with each of his value areas. He could chose "never" (0), "almost never" (1), "sometimes" (2), "fairly often" (3), "often" (4) and "very often" (5). The researcher recorded the numbers in a so-called "affect matrix". The matrices for all 25 of the boys are given in Sandfort 1981 a & b.
Some of the value areas were also scored with respect to different kinds of behavior, and this was analogous to the scoring with respect to feelings. Because it was necessary to limit the time involved in each self-investigation, not all of the value areas were so scored, only some of those in which one or more persons were involved. The following list of behavioral types was used:
Just as in the list of emotions, there were seven positive and seven negative forms of behavior. Once it was clear that the boy understood the words, his perception of the way in which he and the man behaved to one another within the context of the particular value area was depicted.
Both qualitative and quantitative analyses were made of the data assembled through the Self-Confrontation Method. Insights so gained into the boy's experiential world were discussed in a second interview with the boy. The following indices were calculated from the scores recorded in the affect matrix:
P Index: The extent to which a person haspositive feelings within a value area (the sum of the positive feeling scores).
N Index: The extent to which a person has negative feelings within a value area (the sum of the negative feeling scores).
C Index: The extent to which a person is emotionally concerned with a value area (P + N).
Q Index: The quality of a value area, that is, the degree a person has more positive than negative feelings in that area (P/(P + N)).
G Index: The extent to which the specific pattern of emotions within a particular value area correlates with the general experience of theboy, the generalization tendency of that area (product moment correlation).
I Index. The extent to which the specific pattern of emotions within a particular value area correlates with the idealized experience of the boy, the idealization tendency (product moment correlation).
From the behavior scores, similar P, N, C and Q indices were calculated for the selected value areas described above. The significance of these indices in the value areas where they occur are more or less analogous to those of the emotions; thus there are indices for how the boy perceives the behavior of the older partner toward him, and vice versa.
Interviews with Three Boys
ALL THE INTERVIEWS of the 25 boys were tape recorded and the tapes preserved. The following three were selected for transcription and inclusion in Sandfort & Hoogma's Ervaringen vanjongens inpedoftele relaties (Experiences of boys in pedophile relationships), 1982 to reflect the spread of ages of the boys and to give the reader an idea of how the interviews were conducted. They were slightly edited to remove extraneous material.
Interview with Thijs (10 years and 11 months)
What do you do a lot?
Well, first I was in a swim club, but I didn't like that very much. I don't have a lot of hobbies. Sometimes I play a little football. And handball and so on. Mostly I just do different things. I play outside quite a bit, sometimes with friends, sometimes alone.
What do you do then?
Play football, wander around town on the tram. And I also always go swimming with Joop (the older partner) on naked swim days. Usually with Joop, or Loek, who's another man. Ya, he knows a lot of those guys (i.e. pedophiles-T.S.).
Is it important to you that it's naked swimming?
Well, just put down naked swimming-nobody will find out it's me saying this. But I don't like it if there's someone else with us I don't know.
Is that every weekend?
Yes, but sometimes he goes somewhere else.
What do you enjoy a lot?
But we've already put that down.
Well I usually go over to Joop's. I play games there, and have a good time.
What games do you play with each other?
Sometimes we just sit around inside and a lot of boys and girls drop in to visit Joop-usually not so many girls as boys. Every Saturday, with french fries and so on-I always come, too. But I also always come if nobody else is there. So when nobody else can come I get to, and that's because I've know him for such a long time. Well, that's what I do a lot. And sometimes I just make love  with him.
 The Dutch word is "vrijen "-literally to be or make free. Its first meaning is to court, but it can have a range of other meanings from having complete sex with someone to "necking" to being non-sexually but physically intimate with someone, as mothers might be with their small children. Thus, in these interviews, the care which is taken to be sure just what the boy is thinking of when he uses the word.
What do you mean when you say "make love"?
Sometimes sex, sometimes making love, just about everything.
You mean sex is the same as making love?
What shall we put down here, "sex with Joop", or would you rather use "make love"?
Makes no differenceto me. That is just between the two of us.
What do you really dislike?
Having to go to school.
Uh, because I can't play outside. Just about every day we get something difficult--but also something nice. Well, I don't really know... it is mostly having to go to school.
Is there something you think about a lot, for example when you're lying in bed at night?
Yes, sometimes I think that I used to be able to sleep with Joop all the time, but now I can't.
You think about that?
And that in the morning I'll have to go to school.
That school's always there, isn't it?
Sometimes I sleep with my mother, but I have my own room, too, but then my mother is all alone and she is already so old.
Is it that your mother doesn't like to sleep alone?
Then why do you sleep with your mother?
Just because she's so alone. My sister also comes fairly often to sleep with her. But usually she sleeps alone.
You used to be allowed to sleep with Joop?
Yes, but I can't any more. She told me, "Not with him any more." She told me she didn't like it, I mean that I couldn't sleep with him any more. So it's better not to do it, because she doesn't want me to, that's what I figured out.
How do you feel about that?
I don't like it, of course. And so I still think about it.
Who do you get along well with?
With Joop and Loek.
Who is Loek?
He always goes with us to the swimming pool.
Are there other people you get along really well with?
A whole lot: Loek's friends, and people I know real well, of course.
Have you any idea why you get along with Joop so well?
It's because I've known him for such a long time.
How long have you known him?
I'm not sure exactly, two and a half years or so. I've never had a fight with him.
Who don't you get along so well with?
Oh, my brother. My brother is always bad-mouthing me; he calls me a "mini-queer" every time I go over to Joop's. I'm always having fights with him. And my sister who's always bossing me around.
What's your brother's name?
And he calls you mini-queer?
Yes, he says it in a very nasty way. It's kind of a cuss word.
You don't like that?
No, not being called that name. But even if they just say "You're going to Joop" I don't like it.
And what is your sister's name?
So you can't get along very well with Guus and Trees?
And with a guy named Dick. He's always saying behind Joop's back, "Don't go anywhere near that faggot." But he goes to bed with him himself.
So he bad-mouths Joop behind his back?
Yes. Once or twice I've told Joop about it but he doesn't listen to me.
Do you think he doesn't care?
I don't know.
Most things have pleasant and unpleasant sides. Going to school, for example, is pleasant because you learn things. But it can also be unpleasant, perhaps, because you get punished a lot. When you think about sex with Joop, what are the nice things about it?
Well, we like to be with each other. And I'm used to it, I think it's nice and stuff.
You think it's nice?
Yes, I think it's just plain nice with him, the sex and so on.
What do youfind the unpleasant aspects ofsex with Joop?
There aren't any. I don't know of any, at least.
Not even if you think about it real hard?
Isn't there something you'd rather not do?
No. Because if there was I'd say so.
Now I want to talk about something you have written down here--that you can no longer sleep with Joop. At first your mother let you, didn't she?
She used to, a couple of times, a few days or so.
At first you could, then why can't you any more?
My mother found out a bit about Joop, sort of the way Joop is.
Did she find out about it or not?
How did she find out?
He started talking about nude swimming and so on, and then Joop's friends said I went swimming too, nude swimming. Then my mother thought that wasn't such a good idea.
Then she told you you couldn't?
Yes, then she already knew a whole lot.
Was that a long time ago that you slept with Joop?
A couple of years, maybe a year and a half.
The Second Interview
I first want to ask you how long you have known Joop.
Uh, I don't know--two and a half years, two years, something like that. I don't remember so good any more.
You're almost eleven, aren't you, thus you were around 8 or 9 then, weren't you?
Can you remember how you first got to know him, how it went?
Yes. We were going to play football. I was on my bike and the chain came off and Joop said, "Here, let me put it back on." Well, I could do that myself, but he wanted to do it so I let him. Then he asked, "Would you like to come in?" So I went in and then I started playing football with him more often. And so one day we started doing sex. It happened very quickly. I didn't know anything about sex, but I learned in a hurry. One night I went to the toilet and he started playing with my cock. So we began making out, I mean having sex.
What did you think about that atfirst?
I was sort of shy, but later, when I'd been coming there a week or so, I got used to it.
The first time you had sex, that was right at the beginning, you said, you hadn't known him so very long?
Two or three days only. That was when I was still in the children's home. I came to his place every weekend, and sometimes during the week, too. I'd tell them in the Home that I was going to go outside and play, and then to my mother.
So it was right at the beginning, you said. Can you tell me what happened that first time?
You mean the sex? Well, first he asked me. He said, "If you don't like it you must tell me." And so he started doing it a little with his hand... He did that for a while, for a few days. Because I live close to him-I come over a lot. And finally-I think about a month later--I did it to him, too. And two weeks after that we had complete sex with each other... just about every day. Every day I came. Now I come every day, because I'm back home. Just about every day, but sometimes not.
If you had to say who started the sex that first time, who would it be?
Who started sex the first time? He did, of course. I didn't even know what sex was. Okay, I knew what it was but not that.
Even though you'd done it yourself little?
How do you like knowing all about it now?
I knew all about it when I was ten.
What happens now when you have sex with each other?
We just have a little sex, jerk each other off a little, and then we just go to sleep, take a little nap.
Can you say who starts it, when you have sex?
Either of us. Sometimes me, yeah, mostly me. But he, too, real often.
Can you tell me how you do it if you want to start?
I come up close to him and say, "I want to tell you something." Well, if anyone knew what that meant... that's what he always thinks. But I don't think anyone's figured that out.
And then you go to the bedroom?
Yes, but a lot of the kids know, so they say, "Oh, no, not that again! Just hurry up and cum!"
Is it different now from that first time you had sex with Joop?
A whole lot. We didn't used to do it together. I didn't know much about him, and now I know just about everything. I didn't used to have much contact with him, but now I do. And that first time wasn't really true sex.
Does anybody know that you have sex with Joop?
Yes, people who come here to the house.
What do those people think about it?
They never mention it.
And your mother?
I can't let her know anything about it. She does know, but I just say it's not true. But I just keep on coming to Joop.
So really you're lying a little to your mother?
Of course. I'm not going to be kept away from Joop.
Just because, uh...
What do you think your mother would feel about your having sex with Joop?
I guess she'd think it was dirty. She'd think a man doing that with a child was not normal, that you just shouldn't do it. That's what she'd say.
And how do youfeel about her thinking that way?
Rotten stupid! Although I wouldn't tell her it was rotten stupid. I mean, what business is it of hers? It's my business what I do.
Do some of your friends know about it, too?
Yes, friends from school, they know, because they're always ragging me about it a little. Maybe half the school knows. They talk about "queers" and so on.
They call you queer?
No, I don't let on I know they're gossiping about me. I'm not that stupid, because then I'd really get bad-mouthed.
Those boys probably also find it dirty?
Well, I don't know. Could be, because they wouldn't say it was dirty if they really didn't think it was.
How do youfeel about your having sex with Joop?
It's just really nice.
Its no problem for you?
It's just like a man going to bed with a woman--I think it's exactly the same: nice. And the feelings and so on they have, I have too.
Interview with Theo (13 years, 9 months)
What do you do a great deal?
Are you in a club?
Yes. I like it a lot.
Can you tell me why you like football so much?
Yeah, playing together, working as a team. If you're in a good eleven you stick with it. Otherwise you just stop, because everyone tells you you're lousy. I think it's great I'm part of a good eleven.
Are there other things that you do a lot?
Uh, yes... I don't know.
What do you really enjoy?
Playing tricks on people. Tying up bike wheels, that's a lot of fun. Then they can't ride away. Then they do such dumb things to try to get it loose. Or tie up a cat's tail--we did that once--but then I got scratched up good.
What, by the cat? I don't blame him. Why do you enjoy playing tricks on people so much?
I don't know. They act so funny if something's wrong. And just tinkering around with stuff. I doubled the size of a toy car with cardboard. I like fooling around that way.
Do you do other things with cardboard?
Yes, I used to make all sorts of stuff out of it for the Christmas tree.
Are there other important things you enjoy a great deal?
What do you really dislike?
Doing the dishes! Or hauling back shopping--I don't like that very much.
Do you do that a lot?
Sure, every night. Me and my brother have that chore. One of us washes and the other dries. Mother and Dad work late every evening, to around six o'clock, so we eat late. So we have to do the dishes at the same time the TV programs are on.
So you don't get to watch television?
No, we miss the best shows. But the guy who washes has the advantage that he's through first.
I have to do that myself because my little brother always drops the bottles when he takes them out of the cooler. So I'm the one who shops.
Your father and mother both work so that's why they cannot shop themselves?
Yes, but Mother gets Fridays off.
Are there other things you seriously dislike?
No, at school everything's pretty good.
What do you think about a great deal?
I think a lot about school, about math and so on.
What grade are you in?
First form at the technical school.
And you think a lot about school, you say--or do you mean you think a lot when you're at school?
Yes, I think a lot about it. That's different.
Is there anything else you think about a great deal?
Yes, nuclear war and such. I think that's so terrible. Like Harrisburg when that accident occurred, what could then happen. If that really took place on a big scale. That really upset me and I think about that a lot. What would happen in a nuclear war. One of those bombs over The Netherlands and everyone would be dead.
Are there other things you think about a great deal?
Who do you get along well with?
Bert. (The older partner-T.S.)
How long have you known Bert?
Three months. And I get along real good with Mother and Dad.
Why do you think it is thatyouget along so well with Bert?
He understands children--boys--better. My mother does too, and so does my father, but Bert knows more about them, I think.
You get along well with your mother andfather, you say?
Yes, because if something happens, if you've got yourself into some kind of trouble or something, then you can always tell them about it and they'll help you.
Because they're not so strict?
Strict? Well, they can be strict enough, because I'm always getting into fights with my little brother, and then my father asks who started it and whoever did gets punished. Dad can tell by looking at our faces.
And your mother?
Yeah, she always knows what's going on. One time my little brother told her we needed money, two guilders for I. D. photos. She gave him the two guilders but he spent it on candy. But she found out about it and now she's got to see a letter. She won't fall into that trap any more, or we have to forge a letter then next time.
Shall we put your parents down here, too?
Yes, parents, because you can always bring your problems to them.
Are there other people you don't get along well with?
Yes, my little brother.
Why is that?
Oh, he's always pestering me, so I hit him, and then I'm in the wrong. I'm the one that gets punished.
And that's why you dislike him?
Well... not really dislike--but sometimes, yes. One day he's nice enough, helps you and so on, then the next thing you know he's pestering you again.
So you do dislike him?
And what's the main reason?
If he wins at football, which he usually does, then he teases me all the time if we've lost. And he's for Ajax and I'm for Feijenoord . But if Ajax looses to Feijenoord, then I tease him.
 Two of the top professional football (soccer in America) teams in The Netherlands.
So, should we put down your little brother?
Yes, my bratty little brother, my pest of a brother.
And he's younger than you?
Yes. I'm 13; he's 10.
Are there other people you can't get along with well?
You make love with Bert, don't you?
Some people call that sex or sexual contact. How do the two of you, or you yourself, call it?
We have to be sure what is meant, because there's making love and making love, isn't there? For example, if you sit on someone's lap that can be considered making love, but making love in bed, of course, is something altogether different and that's what you mean, isn't it?
Most things have pleasant and unpleasant sides. For example, going to school is pleasant because you learn things. But it can also be unpleasant, for example, if you get punished a lot. If you think about making love with Bert, what are its pleasant sides?
Uh... I don't really know.
Let's put it another way: why do you do it?
Well, because it's nice.
Then that is a pleasant side?
You think it's nice?
Yes, I think it's very nice.
And unpleasant sides? What are the unpleasant sides, for you, to making love with Bert?
Well... he's prickly.
Yes, here... He's all stubbly, because he shaves. The stubble pricks!
Shall we put that down?
Yes. Old porcupine.
Are there other unpleasant sides to making love with Bert? You think it's very nice, but perhaps for one reason or another there are things you'd rather not do?
Yes, when I grow up later I'd rather not do it. I'll have a girl then, and so on.
But now it doesn't bother you?
Nothing that makes you think you'd really rather not do it?
No. Nothing at all.
I also wanted to ask you if sometimes you have sex with other people, with boys or girls or older people.
No. Yes, with Richard (another pedophile-T.S.) sometimes.
You had sex with him?
Yes. It was through him I got to know Bert.
You were here with Richard once?
But you don't do that any more?
The Second Interview
You said that you felt "afraid" fairly often when you thought about having sex with Bert. Can you tell me more about that?
Maybe one time I'll want to get it off my chest and I'll want to tell someone about it, and I do and that person tells somebody else... that scares me.
Why are you scared of that?
Because people will find out about it and I'll get a reputation.
You say that quite often you feel embarrassed.
Yes. In the beginning I was real embarrassed--I wasn't used to it then.
Are you still?
Yes, but not so much as at first.
You said you also felt naughty sometimes. Can you say more about that?
Yes, sometimes I do feel a little naughty, because nobody knows about it. My mother and so on.
But why do youfeel naughty then, because I sometimes do things nobody else knows about?
Well, normal kids really don't do such things... that's sort of the way you think.
You also said you "almost never" felt angry. So you do every so often?
Can you say something more about that, when it happens?
Yes, then I'm ashamed of it.
And thus youfeel a little angry?
Yes, that I could be ashamed of it if somebody found out about it.
Do you think you yourself should be ashamed of it, or not?
Yes, if somebody else found out about it.
But if nobody else knew about it do you think you yourself should be ashamed of it?
No, I don't think so. No.
So just if other people found out about it?
You said you sometimes did unpleasant things to Bert. Can you say more about that?
Okay, if he wants to suck me off I'll tell him it hurts, just to tease him.
Because it doesn't hurt?
And with "coercing", you say you sometimes "coerce" him in connection with sex?
Yes. He'll say, "Come on, we're going to bed," and then I go watch television. And then he says, "The TV's going off," and I say, "If the TV goes off I sleep alone," and then I get to watch TV a little longer.
How long have you know Bert?
Since summer vacation.
So about four months?
Do you still remember how you met Bert?
Yes. One time I went with Richard to the movies and the swimming pool and I met Bert then. It clicked, so I started going with him. Because Rene, who was with Richard, was acting stupid--he put a whole lot of sugar in his tea so there was none left for anyone else. He was only thinking about himself. So I started coming to Bert--it was a lot nicer with him.
Did you go to Bert all by yourself then?
No, Richard had told me, "You can also go to Bert's if you want." Then I slept over with Bert one night and thought it was really nice. So I stuck with Bert--it was a lot better than with Richard.
So you really got to know Bert through Richard?
Can you still remember the first time you had sex with Bert?
No. I was asleep then.
That was the first time you slept here?
Yes, and that was the first time he fooled around with me.
Were you awake then?
Yes, but I didn't mind. I thought it was nice.
Had you already had some sex with Richard?
So you knew the ropes a bit. Is it difficult for you to talk about it?
I suppose a little.
It doesn't make any difference to me what you say. I don't think it's at all dirty or anything, and certainly not strange.When you have sex with each other now, how does it go?
Uh just as it always does.
Who starts it?
Bert or me.
Can you tell me more about it?
Well, I just think it's nice so I just go and make love with him.
Do some people know that you have sex with Bert?
My father and mother know about it.
What do they think about it?
Well, that it's normal. If you had a girl that would be normal. Because one person can't do without a girl, another can't do without a boy and a third person can't do without a man. Yeah, they just think it's normal.
They think they're all about the same?
How do youfeel about their thinking that way?
I think it's fine. Because some people would like to murder all pedophiles and homophiles just because they aren't normal human beings. My father and mother aren't that way.
Do you agree with them?
Yes, I think they're right.
Do your school friends know you have sex with Bert?
How do you think they'd feel about it if they knew?
They'd all think I was queer or something, and that's not so. Yes, they'd call you that.
It's an insult?
Why would your ftiends have so much trouble with it ?
I wouldn't really know--maybe because they're jealous.
That they'd like to have themselves what you have?
Yes, it could be.
What do you think about their attitude? Do you agree with them?
No, they don't know anything about how it is.
In other words, if they did know something about it they might feel differently?
Yes, maybe. If they knew a little more about it. Now they just talk rubbish.
How do you yourself feel about having sex with Bert?
I think it's real nice, but I would also like to have a girl.
Would that make a difference in your life, or would you have to say you didn't really know exactly?
I don't know. I've never done it with a girl.
But you would certainly like to?
But you don't have to right away?
No. It'll happen in due time.
And in the meantime this is nice.
Interview with Gerrit (16 years, 1 month)
What do you do a lot?
Well, I do a lot of things by myself, developing myself and so on. Right now I'm really busy with my school work, because I'm studying to be a waiter and I really want to pass. I also do sketches about repression and so on--I spend a lot of time at that.
You first said you were busy developing yourself, can you say more about it?
Okay, finding my own way in our society; not just how everybody else does but my own particular way. I'm still trying. For example, my parents have completely different opinions than I do, so I'm trying to get untangled from them and develop my own thoughts. Not what people repeat over and over again but what comes out of the real me.
Why do you want to do that?
Because I'm completely in disagreement with my parents at the moment, the things they say. And often with most people, so I want to develop my own thoughts. I think that's very important for myself. At home I often have totally different opinions from my parents. For example if they tell me I ought to go out and try to get a girl, then I tell them I have absolutely no desire to do that because a girlfriend would get all involved in my life and I'd no longer be free. They'd like that, but I wouldn't. So I go completely my own way.
The second thing you were very much involved in was school?
Yes. I'm in the restaurant training program. It's the first time I've enjoyed going to school: I had to repeat two grades in junior high and two grades in technical school.
Did you choose this school yourseff?
Yes, I chose it myself. I always wanted to be a waiter; I always thought it a nice profession. Being with people: that's the nice part of being a waiter. My parents made me go to junior high, and there I had to take the first grade over again; then I went to technical school and I had to waste two years in the second grade; finally I got to go to this school. And that's working out real well for me.
Have you already had to work as a waiter?
They try to find work for me. I have to get some practical experience.
Those are the two most important preoccupations of yours?
Yes, of course. And I work at painting and sketching and I'm also now trying to write a poem.
What do you enjoy a lot?
Write down "living my own life". You don't get the chance to do it at home, but here with Barend I really do get the opportunity to develop myself. And also sketching-I get a lot of pleasure out of that-it's a real nice hobby, I think. Barend helps me quite often, for example if I've made a sketch he'll tell me what's wrong in it. But Barend can draw real well himself. And then I make it better, so you learn how to get the best results in sketching. And in my spare time I sometimes go into the country, to look at nature. I often do that alone. I'd planned soon to buy a camera so I could take nature photos and try to develop them. I'm getting darkroom lessons at school. I live in the city and all there is around you is houses, so recently I've been going a lot out in the country because I think it's beautiful there. Maybe later I'd like to have a little house somewhere in the country. Try to live completely free of this society.
What do you mean by free?
Well, you can never be really free in our society, because you have to work in order to live. But I mean that you don't just have to bend all the time with society. That you can express your own feelings and not just buy things, like everyone else does. Live very simply. Yes, a waiter, that is a simple life, isn't it? It's not like you can afford to go out and buy everything you see.
What do you really dislike?
Okay, I really hate these dolled-up girls you always see walking around on the street showing off. I dislike that so much. At the restaurant school there are 13 girls and 2 boys in my class, and they lookjust like mannekins; they're horrible to look at. Thick make-up-I don't think they have to do that. And then they come into the class all stuck-up and if you say anything about it they talk back-they always know better.
Are there other things you dislike a great deal?
Sure, when grown men talk to each other and I disagree with what they're saying. Then I have to keep still, because I'm not equal to grownups, I'm still small. That really upsets me, that I can't say what I think. They're always right, these grownups. I want to be able to express my opinions. It doesn't matter to me that I can't talk with adults, but for example if they start saying that boys have to get married later and work so that later they can found a family, and I say, "Come on, that's not necessary, because who says we're going to get married," but I have to keep still because they know better than I do. "You'll have to get married, otherwise you're not healthy," they'd then say. And that really annoys me. You can almost never say what you think. Adults go and vote in elections, but we can't do that. We have to wait until we're eighteen, and then they think your adult enough. You're allowed to express your own opinion, but only if it's to their advantage.
What do you think about a lot?
Well, that's difficult. I think a lot about what is going to happen--in the future.
Does that worry you, or not?
No, it doesn't worry me, but I think a lot about how things are going to be later, how I'm going to be living.
Who do you get along with well?
That's an easy question! With Barend--I get along real well with him. Otherwise with almost nobody. I don't get on very well with my parents, because they always have to be right. It's really wonderful that I can come here to Barend and that I can get along with him so beautifully. Because he has sort of the same thoughts as I do. If I'd never met Barend my life would have been a whole lot different; I think I'd have been working in a factory or something. I've learned a lot from Barend, but never, "You've got to accept this from me." He's never done that. He's told me how society operates, and if I don't agree with him I can always say so. But most of the things he says about it I agree with. So he hasn't influenced me; he's just helped me to think along these lines. As a child you cannot develop your own opinions if your parents say this or that is good, just accept it. If you hear things from both sides, then you can go on to think about which is right. Finally you figure out yourself which side is right and which is wrong.
Are there other people you get along well with?
Yes. A lady friend of Barend's whom I see every so often; I get along well with her. And also friends in the neighborhood I go around with once in a while.
Who don't you get along very well with?
Well, there are a whole lot. My parents--I don't get along so very well with them--and the kids at school, I got on with them really badly, they always knew better. But at this new school it is completely different, there you're considered independent. So I can just independently decide things at school and, for example if I'm sick, I don't need a letter from my parents. I think that's really good because if you want to play hookey one day you just write your own letter. But you come up against it yourself in the end, like with exams. Yes, with my parents I don't get on so good, but every so often I do. They just have completely different ideas from me. I get on okay with my younger brother, except with my older brother I can't get on at all. He is so hard-headed, he always knows best-yes a real show-off. If he has to take care of the house when my parents are away he always tells my youngest brother, "Get me a beer out of the shed, roll me a cigarette, put my shoes away," that sort of thing. He used to go with Barend and that was absolutely hopeless. Yeah, and every time he comes home with a friend or with his girlfriend, I always get a lot of static from him: he walks around the house as though he owns it. He does that a lot, but it doesn't really matter to me very much. But one time I got so mad I slugged him; I didn't really know what I was doing. He had a bloody nose and a torn lip, and that really shocked me.
Are there other things I've forgotten about which you think would be important to write down?
Yes, that laws will come for children, that everything gets changed, that children will be able to say what they think about our society. I think that's very important. That kids aren't just things owned by other people who can tell them, "Do this chore, wash up, and if you don't do your best at school you'll be punished, and if you don't do this or that you're going to get hit." That that's all over with. That laws are passed so kids themselves can decide about themselves.
The next question is what is the name of your friend--that's Barend, we already have that. So the following question is, you make love with Barend, too?
Some people call it sex or sexual contact. What do you call it?
Well, mostly sex, but it's also letting yourself feel that you're really fond of someone--it doesn't necessarily have to be sex alone.
Many things have both good and annoying sides. Going to school, for example, is annoying because you get homework and sometimes get punished, but it is also nice because you learn a lot. So there could also be good and annoying aspects ofyour sex with Barend. What, for you, are the good sides? Why would you not want to go without it?
I think it's wonderful to do these things with Barend because I'm fond of him, and because I like doing them, too. The bad sides don't really matter very much. I myself think it's very nice to do.
You said the bad sides didn't matter to you very much?
No. But my parents are always worrying me with, "What are you doing all the time with Barend?" And that gripes me. When I was in the Junior High Technical School some of the boys saw me with Barend and they called, "Look, there go two queers!" Well, that annoyed me, but in the long run it didn't matter to me at all.
And that your father and mother worry about it?
Yes, they've worried about it a lot: "What you're doing with Barend, is that really responsible?" Usually I just give short answers, like I enjoy going over there. And when I come back in the evening it is again, "What were you doing over there with Barend?" So I'll say I was sketching. That is the annoying side of my relationship with Barend, the constant concern of all these people, but the sex is not unpleasant. But all that worrying by all these people, at school, by aunts and uncles: "What's that boy doing there again?" It runs through the whole family. But it doesn't bother me. I used to pay too much attention to it; one time I even thought to myself, "It stop my friendship with Barend," but then I chose for Barend.
Are there other people you have sex with--other boys, girls or adults?
The Second Interview
How long have you known Barend?
From last summer, four years.
Do you still remember how you got to know him?
My little brother and I had been swimming in the ponds. My brother was nine then and he smoked and I did, too. Then Barend came along in his Ugly Duckling  and stopped in the parking lot. So I told my brother, "Go ask that man for a cigarette, 'cause he smokes, too. " So my brother went up to him and said, "What time is it?" "Five-thirty." "Could you give me a cigarette?" Barend said, "How old are you?" "I'm fourteen," said my brother. Well, after a lot of haggling my brother got a cigarette, and I did, too, and then we started walking with him. No, wait, my brother didn't get a cigarette but I did, because I was older. So after we'd walked a while with him we went and sat by the water and talked. He said he had a boat and we asked him if we might be able to go sailing with him sometime. And we did go out with him, together with my parents. My father found Barend very nice, distinguished and so on. And after that I didn't see Barend for half a year.
 The Citroen CV-2 basic passenger car, sometimes called the "Deux chevaux".
How did it happen that you saw him again after hatf a year?
Well, it was summer vacation and I had nothing to do, and I said to my friend, "Hey, let's take a bike ride; I know about a boat and we can go out on it." We finally got there but Barend wasn't around. His boat was, though. Then I asked the man behind the bar at the caf6 nearby if he knew his address. Well, he didn't know it, nor his telephone number. We tried looking in the telephone book and finally had to give up. A few days later I went there with another friend, again on the bike, and this time we met Barend. He was busy fixing up his boat, and we went and helped him. But my friend had to go home and eat but he got a flat tire on the way. So Barend put his bike in the back of the car and we went with him to his house. Well, after that I went more and more often to the boat and after I'd met him there a couple of times Barend came to my house to pick me up. After that he came fairly often to our house, ate with us once in a while. So then I started really going with him.
Can you still remember when you and Barend had sex with each other the first time?
Yes, that first time I wasn't alone here. I think my brother was here, too.
Your younger brother?
No, my older brother. My younger brother can't come with me. Well, the three of us were lying here on the bed and Barend had a sex book on the table. So my brother and I began to read it and I began to sort of jerk off and so on. From then on we had sex with each other.
How long had you known each other then?
About a month or two, maybe three, after I'd met him again after that half year.
You said you'd started to read a sex book, you and your brother, and then?
Well, I think Barend started to jerk off a little, and my brother,too.
Barend did it to himself?
Yes. At first I didn't dare, but later it just went automatically, and from then on we did it to each other. That first time Barend did it a little bit to my brother, but not to me. Because I was a bit embarrassed--my brother not: he went around with Barend for two years.
When you have sex with each other now, who begins it?
Well, usually I visit him in the evenings and then we come up here and lie down on the bed and we start to sort of make love--it happens all of itself, so, who starts it? Both of us a little.
If you compare the first time with now, is there a difference?
Yes, a big difference. Now I do it a lot easier and it feels a lot finer than at first. Because at first I didn't really dare, I felt embarrassed and my parents always said it was real bad and so on. So I was always thinking, "What would my parents say?" Now I am comfortable with it. Even if my parents did know I'd still be comfortable with it.
It's also nicer when you compare it with before?
Yes, much nicer, because before you did it more for thrills than for yourself, so you were always worried about what they would think about it at home.
How did that worry go away?
Slowly, as time went on. Barend visited me a lot at home, he was very fond of me, and slowly the worry just disappeared. A year or so ago I still had it a little, but now not at all. I don't care if my father and mother know.
They don't really know, do they?
They don't know but they suspect. My mother brings it up often, and then I just say, "I'm very fond of Barend and Barend is very fond of me," and then she doesn't care to go into it any further.
How do you think yourfather and mother would feel if they knew you were having sex with Barend?
Well, my father and mother think it is fine that I'm at home at Barend's and that I also come here to Barend a lot-that my parents think is really great, thus I think that if they found out they wouldn't consider it so terrible. Yes, because they think it is very fortunate that I have this relationship with Barend.
But you have no need to tell them?
No, it would just add tension to the home atmosphere. If I told them they'd go right to Barend.
So they would find it a little bit bad?
Well, there'd be worry in the house over, "You have to think about your future, marriage, having children." That's the way my parents think, still really old-fashioned. I don't want to get married, I'm not going to work all my life for children, I want to live a free life later, alone.
Are there people who do know that you have sex with Barend?
Sure, a lot, all Barend's friends and acquaintances at his work. They all know about it.
And your firiends don't know?
No, except those that come here sometimes.
What do you think your friends would say if they did know that you were having sex with Barend?
Oh, they'd call me a queer and so on. But that doesn't bother me, because I know they do it themselves, with other men. I'd just let them gossip. If I'd go to the nudist beach and some of my friends came along it would go all through the neighborhood. Fortunately my father is a supporter of that sort of thing, naturist beaches and so on. But my mother doesn't like going there, otherwise my father would naturally go himself. So he would thoroughly approve of my going to a nudist beach.
Have you sometimes been called a queer because you're seen with Barend?
Yes, in the neighborhood, especially in the beginning. You go around with a queer, thus you're queer yourself. But it got a little annoying when they came to the door yelling, "Queer, queer, queer!" So I caught those boys one by one and told them, "You just try doing that again! "--because they were mostly little boys of ten or so-I'm pretty much the oldest in the neighborhood, except for the really big boys: they are 21 or so and not yet married and they still hang around in the area. Well, they kept on at it and then I roughed them up a bit and after that they quit.
It's a good thing those older boys didn't go after you.
That's the motorcycle crowd, around twenty of them. They're always hanging around the square with their heavy bikes. I don't do anything to them and they've never done anything to me. If I ever got into a fight in the neighborhood I'd just have to call on them and I'd get help. But I don't belong at all to that crowd. I don't mix with them; I give them a light, just walk by. I never talk with them. I think it's a terrible crowd, tearing around all the roads with their bald heads-that's absolutely nothing for me.
How do you yourself feel about having sex with Barend?
I think it's really great that I have it. I used to think, when I hadn't yet started going with Barend, that it would be dirty, that's what my parents always said, you weren't healthy, you were sick and you had to look out for such people. But none of that's true. No, I think it's just plain great that I can do these things with Barend. That's my opinion.
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