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5. Meeting the Dutch (Groups)

The Ipce Meeting had several guests, representing groups and organizations in the Netherlands. They introduced themselves and were avaible for questions and discussion.

Koinos Magazine

Koinos Magazine offers art, politics, stories, information and sometimes discussion. It is a printed magazine with photos that are accepted even in the USA. It is a 'simple' magazine in the sense that we do not pretend to change the world. Bookstores in four countries sell the magazine. 

Issue number 60 will appear in December. We have existed now fifteen years. We  have never had problems in all these years. The magaine is a foundation (Amikejo), so there are no members, only editors and a board. 

Spreading by Internet? It is now possible to pay via the Internet, after which the magazine will be sent by post. In the future, we may want to add a web version, or  create a web-based magazine. In the meantime, we intend to publish a photo book. 

PNVD - Political Party for Neighbourly Love, Freedom & Diversity

PNVD: < http://www.pnvd.nl/ >. 
Started in 2006, we have met with much resistance, but also worldwide attention. We are a small group with no more than twenty members. There is still resistance, especially from a group named Stop Children's Sex with an active website. Some people have tried to ban the party, but this is not possible because Dutch  Constitution guarantees freedom of speech and association. It seems now that  Dutch society is getting accustomed to our existence. 

As individuals, we, the small group who went public, have had, and still have, lots of problems. Regularly, we had to ask for protection from the police, which we received. On some occasions the police have indeed been protecting and neutral, on others they have been troublesome, intimidating and manipulating. One of us had to be questioned by police, because he had publicly called the group mentioned above "liars". He had handed over a list of the lies made by the group. In the following period, three of our attackers were convicted. We have also won a case for the Council of Journalism.  

We see ourselves as a humanistic and liberal party with a broad program. However, the mass media mention only one point, sexuality. We have had ten main points in our program, but have now selected  five main points.

  1. A small state and government, solely to protect the people. 
  2. Elementary schools may not be based on religion. 
  3. Children are in charge of and control their own body. 
  4. We want to quit the European Union. 
  5. Respect for privacy. 

One of the deleted points is a law that forbids the eating of meat. Now we say: be good to animals. 

"What did you learn from the problems you have had?"
- It is still difficult to collaborate with the mass media. You cannot control them. We have to be very careful in what we say. We cannot avoid the media, but now we are more selective. We want to make films and flyers. 

"Do you think that you have any influence?"
- Actually, yes. Everyone knows now that  pedophiles also have constitutional rights. We have put the p-subject on the public agenda."
"But the other political parties explicitly avoid you." 
- Yes, but things are gradually changing. There is regognition of our rights, as long we keep our hands off. And the atmosphere in the discussions is more quiet now. Recently, in a television show, we were present as recognizable persons and our opponents were masked. Now they are scared. I believe in these changes. 

"As long as we (the Netherlands) are part of the EU, are you willing to support the amendment discussed here?"
- I still do not know this. 

"Does it help to be more assertive?" 
- Yes, the atmosphere is hard, we have to defend ourselves. Starting a real discussion is difficult because many do not want any discussion. However, our opponents are a small group. We ignore them; we only manage our website and forum. 

"Being mentioned in the media is one thing, but if people will listen to you, that is another point. The media in the Netherlands are relatively tolerant."
"You cannot avoid the mass media. Television has much influence. If you can only  be there, people will know that 'they exist', and thus be known, as a political party or otherwise." 

"You need appealing points to win the acceptance by the media and the public. Choose such points, realistic ones, for example, human rights. 
- That's exactly what we do. We promote free public transport. Nowhere in our program is the p-word mentioned. 

"Excuse me, but your mentioned points seem to me quite unrealistic." 
- I disagree. Main point for me is fighting for our rights. 

"Do you have a Mission Statement?"
- No, only our five main points. 

"How do you get members?"
- We ask them nothing. Everyone can be a member. 

"But your candidates, your members and your voters will be seen as pedophiles. Do you have any influence on other political parties and their programs?"
- No, not any, at least not now.

"Those five points, they can also be found in other political parties. Anyone who agrees with them, can vote for other parties."
- Yes, but nevertheless, we keep up our courage and we will keep on. 

Association Martijn

< http://www.martijn.org/ >. 
The association tries to have pedophilia accepted by society and to give room to adult-child relationships within the limits of the law. We are well known. Regrettably, we have had a dip in 2007. The board was not active and had little contact with the members. It is difficult to find members for the board. But now, we have a new board with new plans and more contact with and information for the members. 

We had a problem after a member of our (on-line) forum placed on it a photograph of princess Amalia, the daughter of the Crown Prince. Although we quite quickly removed it, we had to face a court trial and had to pay  a lot of money, as well as having had attacks on our defendant, one of our members. We have closed the forum. 

We had to decide to close the OK Magazine. Even had we found a printer, it would have proved too expensive for less than 200 members. Content and layout costs lots of time, and even then a copier is necessary. There will be just one last issue. Now we send Newsletters to our members, but only three times a year.

We still receive questions: enquires for help and for information, the latter mostly by students. If possible, we introduce respondents to the students. We give oral interviews, and refer for research and literature to Frans. For help, we can ask a small team, Ad and Frans, who will speak later today. 

"In Germany, OK Magazine was highly appreciated. It is a pity to close it. Why not a coalition with Koinos Magazine?"
- This would be still be difficult. A printer makes 500 issues, not less - for 200 members? Too expensive. Making copies is also expensive and time-consuming.

"It is a pity. Your magazine is the face of your organization. People want to see something on paper, including pictures."
- Regrettably. And publishing nude photos is impossible nowadays. 

"Those students, do you create or have a forum for them? Do you specifically aim at students? And do you receive their texts afterward?"
- The forum is closed now. There is a (small) library. For more literature, we can refer to Frans. No, we do not aim specifically at students. And the results ... they come for an interview with a cameraman, and we never see any result. This particularly concerns students of journalism."
"Students are important, especially if they will  later be journalists. Thus specifically aim at them. Be more active, pro-active. Try to have influence on what they produce." 
- Frans: for written term papers or theses, I usually help the students. I ask to see their theses and, if good, publish them on the Internet. 

"Can you give lessons at schools?"
- Not at schools, only lectures at universities. Norbert and Frans have done this. 
"Can you publish a brochure or so, as the PSVG did in 1981?"
- Actually not. This might even be dangerous nowadays. 

"The members, are they men, women, boylovers, girllovers?"
- Mostly men, and we do not ask for the sexual orientation of our members, so we don't know this. 

"What exactly is the mission of the Association Martijn?" 
- Helping people with pedophilic feelings, being open for them, speaking with them. 
"That is an internal goal, not an external message. Hasn't emancipation been your goal?"
- Yes, but we have changed. Now our mission is to be visible enough to give the kind of help I just mentioned. 

The Ad & Frans Team

Ad: About three years ago, we formed a team mainly to help people in enforced closed treatment institutions. We are contact persons outside the clinic, reachable by phone. So, patients can phone us and do this regularly to unburden themselves. They describe what happens in the clinic, so we get a clear image of what is happening there behind the walls. We also visit the patients. 

We also make contact with the staff of the clinic and speak with them. We are co-thinkers, understanding both staff and patient. These clinics try, quite intensively, to normalize their patients. We present the staff with other views: do not try to suppress their feelings, learn them to live with them.  Give them some room for those feelings. By doing so, we try to build bridges. Regrettably, we mostly speak with the staff officers, not with the group leaders. At the staff level, good discussion is really possible, at the 'lower' level there is far more lack of knowledge.

Regrettably, we cannot reach each clinic; some refuse us because we are 'members of the ped-network', which has to be broken down completely. My entrance is knowledge and my experiences as a psychiatric nurse, Frans' entrance is his scientific grade, his age, knowledge and experience. He also has written reports and provides advises to the clinics, the court and probation officers. He also speaks with lawyers, and I too with the family of the patients. 

They know that we are members of Martijn and JON (Frans) or PNVD (Ad), but we act there as individuals. Also being a team, Frans and I are in frequent contact by phone. I have rather more contact with the patients, Frans has easier contact with the staff. 

"How does this start?"
- The initiative is at the patient level, but can also be with his lawyer or the NVSH.

"How many?"
- Four patients and three clinics. Frans has visited many prisoners and has also spoken with a community treatment center. 

"Are these people normal pedophiles or real offenders?"
- The treatment is ordered by the court or the probation officers. Actually, they are both and this makes, for us, no difference. Both need help. Both have to learn the same skills. 

"Your aims?"
- For all: freedom and prevention of recidivism. 

"How do you and the clinics work?"
- All clinics work along the cognitive-behavioral model, usually with the addition of a kind of psychotherapy. We work in the humanistic and Rogerian model. The clinics accept this. They know very well that their method does not always work. 

"As a field worker in such a clinic, you have to accept more or less the treatment policy and model. But there is enough freedom to work also in a more humanistic and Rogerian style."


The International Boy Love Day is a half-yearly meeting. Here in the Netherlands, there are usually 50 to 80 visitors, coming from the Netherlands, Belgium and other European countries. The (public) meeting place changes on each occasion,  and is known only to the accepted visitors. There is a kind of procedure for entering this community. It starts in the afternoon, than there is a dinner and some drinks after it. There is no agenda, no president, there are no papers, no decisions to take. The only aim is to meet one another. 

Most visitors are young men, nearly all of them visitors to several Internet Forums. The first things exchanged are nick names and real names. On these forums, there is sometimes some debate or discussion, but never on an academic level. During the IBLD, the conversation is more personal. I am already growing older, but on the IBLDs, I have met young people, the next generation, and so I keep contact with their ways of living, feeling and thinking. What I always hear is a kind of code, or ethical rule, which is to avoid sexual contact. The men choose friendship within the limits of the law. 

Foundation Counter Balance (Stichting Tegenwicht)

The Home page < http://www.tegenwicht.org/ >, English version on 
< http://www.tegenwicht.org/english.htm > tells us: 
"Counter Balance (Tegenwicht) is a web site brought to you by critical citizens in the Netherlands. [...] Counter Balance wants to shadow our society and its rulers critically and if necessary provide a Counter Balance. 
Why? For a humane society, a society with human relationships of high quality. 
They exist, but some are limited and threatened. [...]
Counter Balance is not a chat- or news siteCounter Balance gives only statements with links so you can read more. Counter Balance works as a writers' collective.
Copying is allowed."

Changing society is the overall target, room for free child-adult relationships is a narrow target. To reach the latter, you have to achieve the first. The subjects of the essays cover a very broad spectrum. The website has a section for essays about a variety of subjects, long articles about many subjects with much literature, and a Weblog that once or twice each month reacts to what actually happens in our society using essays or columns with less literature. Tegenwicht has also a closed e-mail list, on which we gather news items, background articles, discuss, and form opinions, and react to current events. 

"Are there articles about youth-adult relationships?"

- Yes, some. Rind et al..'s meta-analysis is explained with the meta-analysis and lots of other articles as background literature. Also Rind's article about the young male gays, and more. But about 80% of the content is general, not ped-related. 

"Have you ever had problems with the author's rights?"
- Yes, but only on one occasion. An association of writers protested against placing whole articles. So we have changed our site and our policy: nearly all background articles are written as "Quotes from ...". The complete article can be requested from the webmaster, who keeps an archive of all complete articles. 

"How do you find the writers?"
- No problem, we form a small but solid writers' collective, and we frequently have guest writers, on their request or on our request. 

"Do you receive reactions?"
- The site is not interactive, one has to mail to the webmaster. We have never had problems or hate mails. Furthermore, we have good reactions, requests to place or mention an article or book, and we receive mails from students who ask for (more) information and the complete articles. 

The group KOR in The Hague

"KOR" stands for 'Child-Adult Relationships". We are one of the few groups within the NVSH that still exist. JON is the other group (see here below). We have existed since the middle-eighties. The leaders of the group are a workgroup with four  people. 

Once upon a time, we organized open meetings each month, which in the eighties attracted about thirty people. In that era there was more action, for example, regular meetings with police. Now we have closed meetings with about fifteen people. We have changed from open meetings to closed meetings because one of our opponents, the group mentioned earlier, had published our address and the data of our meetings. To prevent problems, we changed our policy. 

We can use the facilities of the NVSH, so no problem with that. The group in Rotterdam had to face the problem that the Rotterdam NVSH chapter had to abandon their building due to lack of money. Since then, both groups have fused into one group. 

I may say that, in the history of these kinds of groups, there have sometimes been quarrels and internal problems, or problems within NVSH. Such problems have brought about the demise of at least two groups. I may tell you that we have never  had such troubles. 

"What is the age of your visitors?"
- The coordinators are older, but most visitors are in their  twenties. 
"How do you reach them?
- We share some of the forums, so they know us. One can also phone the NVSH office. 
"Are young people active?" 
- Not as such. They talk and form among themselves an attitude and an opinion, and a style of living. 


"JON" stands for 'NVSH Workgroup JORis Oost Nederland', 'Youth-Adult relationships, intimacy, sexuality - in the East of the Netherlands'. But Take "East" up as a very broad region. Here is our website [actually: a new URL since July 2008:] < http://www.jorisoost.nl/ >. On the home page, you will see flags, referring to the seven languages of our website. The website is not made interactive, one has to mail the webmaster. The English home page says:

"JON is a Dutch local support group for people that have the ability to fall in love with children. It's not easy to discover this aspect in yourself. JON thinks these feelings should not be hidden or denied. It's better to accept them as part of yourself. JON tries to help you handle these feelings in a responsible and legal way. JON offers Dutch people the possibility to talk about these feelings, let them hear how others handle them, and allow them to make their own choices. You are not alone!" - and more.

For four years, I have been a member of JON. The group is small, and we know each other very well - small is pretty. I am content with it. We have about ten members, but some of them we see only infrequently at our meetings. Every month, we gather in a living room, where we talk and we share a dinner. We are a self-help group. Members can have to face a variety of problems, for example unwanted coming out, problems with children, parents, neighborhood, job, and so on. The only public action is our website. This website was suddenly removed by our provider. But we have found another provider we now pay every month.

It is a quite stable group. Recently, we have welcomed a new member who had some problems. He had been referred to three psychologists, but none of them was able to give adequate help. Now JON is the place to discuss his problem, and his last psychologist is so content with it that she has ended the therapy, giving the flag to JON.

"Didn't you have problems with having your telephones tapped?"
- Yes, in 2003, but that is all over now. Other than the sudden need to change our provider, we never had problems.

"Well," said several people, "that's good. Continue your monthly meetings and keep up!"

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